The trolling rule needs revising.

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    Which trolling rule should be used?

    [ 39 ]
    46% [46%] 
    [ 11 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 34 ]
    40% [40%] 

    Total Votes: 84

    flc

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    The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by flc on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:14 am

    The trolling rule, as it is now, is horrible. We saw it last season when an item box won IL (though this has been changed), and it seems every season we have at least one incident where someone gets wheelie bumped and loses the war as a result. The trolling rule is a relic of the bitching and moaning in WCL circa 2010 from various clans, who didn't like having to swerve a bit. It's complicated, has too many loopholes, and removes a lot of the skill involved in bagging (what little there is).

    Therefore, I propose that we use one of the following three options:

    => Allow trolling:
    Advantages
    - Promotes skill-based bagging
    - Promotes attentiveness and frontrunning skill
    - Balances out the shock-dodging metagame (since trolling counters dodging)
    - Zero confusion about rules or penalties
    - Additional factors to take into account in track selection and racing strategy

    Disadvantages
    - A number of teams will likely leave, or threaten to leave, the league
    - Gives shit clans something else to blame their losses on, i.e. more drama


    => Disallow single-target item hits:
    (i.e. allows shocks, pows and bloopers but nothing else; wheelie bumps, goldens, box stealing/camping are all fair game)

    Advantages
    - Minimal confusion
    - A good compromise between the other two options
    - Extremely easy to prove via video evidence
    - Any item hits are entirely the bagger's fault

    Disadvantages
    - Doesn't solve the core issue (i.e. that the trolling rule is cumbersome and overly complicated)
    - Loopholes will be discovered, which will require additional rules, thus defeating the point of simplifying the trolling rule in the first place
    - Doesn't solve any of the usual proof-call drama surrounding trolling


    => Disallow all item use/being lapped:
    (penalty either for item use or being lapped, or even both; proof by minimap)

    Advantages
    - No loopholes or ambiguity.
    - Promotes 5v5 play instead of 4v4 + 1v1.
    - Getting a lap behind unintentionally only happens if people are legitimately awful (gv2 included)
    - Makes wars 6 minutes shorter just by not having to wait for baggers to time out/having to reset for people who accidentally dc'd while bagging

    Disadvantages
    - In the current metagame, shock battles will move from two laps behind the pack to one lap minus a few seconds. (i.e. bagging will become more about who is more willing to risk being lapped than who is actually better at bagging)
    - Will lead to drama over whether or not someone is actually lapped
    - Completely removes skill from the equation in bagging


    I'm leaning towards option A, Allow Trolling. If I've missed anything in this post, please feel free to point it out.

    Also, personal preference is irrelevant here. After all, if personal preference meant anything, I'd be asking for 6v6 Australian only backwards races where the lowest score wins.


    Last edited by flc on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Veil

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Veil on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:31 am

    I'll vote for A personally,but a lot of clans hate trolling to be allowed indefinitely.


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    Bounty

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Bounty on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:52 am

    I've rooted for A since the first trolling poll back in WCL, and I agree that the rules as they are now are far from perfect so thanks for making this thread.

    The disadvantages from A are probably too high since many scrubs will leave the league (Don't flame me for that sentence as scrub is a legitimate term in this case). These points have been brought up on multiple occasions and the main counter point is it's "cheap".
    Another positive I want to add is that trolling is the best counter to people who are subtly hacking.

    It will definitely be changed but I'm leaning more towards B than A only because too many people will ragequit and rage (Although they probably would for B anyways).

    Thread of 2013 imo.


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    Blackheart

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Blackheart on Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:24 pm

    Trolling is an horrible idea. Trolling should be only counted as hitting the first top 3 racers with power items or wheelie bump them. the rest of stealing the item boxes and that stuff is pointless and just excuses...

    Just my oppinion




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    Thomas

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Thomas on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:04 pm

    Hm the rules how they are atm are fine imo, if people want trolling allowed they just have to allow it when they host, if people don't want troll penalties they just have to go somewhere where they can't get touched ( never seen imperious allowing troll btw so I don't see why you want to allow it now )
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    Arpegio

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Arpegio on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:33 pm

    flc wrote:=> Allow trolling:
    Advantages
    - Promotes attentiveness and frontrunning skill
    Excuse me ? Could you explain to me how you can frontrun well when someone is trying to star/bill you ? Oh, with the Sousui hax maybe ? Wink

    This debate has been here for ages, more especially during the last four WCL seasons. I wonder where you were ?
    All the options that you're proposing had always been proposed and then tried... 1st and 3rd failed badly, respectively in WCL/IL and MKL (french league). So I think the actual trolling rule is fine, except item box haha.
    Everybody should have the choice, and I don't know why there is always someone to put his finger in the shit. You can't mix friendly wars (where everyone stupidly forget to allow/disallow trolling), with IL matches. Except if you wanna transform MKW in a whole competition ?

    Don't get me wrong : KC doesn't hate trolling. It is fun at times, but not all the time.

    flc

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by flc on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:01 pm

    frontrunning skill comes down to item avoidance, item use, consistency and speed. avoiding trolls is--or at least should be--included in item avoidance. it's also countered by shock dodges, which in turn are countered by trolling. therefore, the better frontrunners will win more often assuming they're good enough to avoid trolling, which they really should be.

    the debate has been around for ages, but during the last 4 wcl seasons, bash was the one making the decisions and he was extremely biased and rarely actually did anything. I was the one trying to make the trolling rule change back then as well.

    friendly wars should not use the IL rules. people only do that out of laziness.

    the rules are not fine as they are now. that stop-starring someone and wheelie bumps are the same penalty is ridiculous enough, but in wars where someone accidentally wheelie bumps someone because of lag, we open a whole can of worms about whether or not it was intentional, whether it was just lag, whether it affected the outcome of the race... basically it just creates a whole lot of pointless drama that a succinct rule (or no rule at all) would do away with.

    SM4e

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by SM4e on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:42 pm

    I'm sure a lot of clans would leave the competition, if trolling was allowed again. Trolling is an oppotunity for weaker clans to have a chance to win. That's why I actually think, it'd be the idea to let the rules the way they are right now because of the high loss of skill.
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    Stevens94

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Stevens94 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:51 pm

    Well, maybe there should be different deductions given for the different trolling variants.
    i.e -10 for wheelie bumping, -15 for bumping someone off the track, and the full -20 for hitting them with a mega/bill/star.


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    ★Sonι¢ζ☆

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by ★Sonι¢ζ☆ on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:42 pm

    I vote C, i think trolling shouldnt be allowed cause for lot of people(including me), its very annoying to be 1st and get destroyed by trollers, that rule always make that the best clan lost because of the troll , thats my opinion, regards


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    Kabazauls

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Kabazauls on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:09 pm

    This entire post stemmed from an im vs Rt war where there was a large argument over a troll, cba to explain the whole thing.

    I really think trolling should be allowed although there's a good chance it would make imperious do worse in IL wars since we have not gotten much practice for it nor do we have many people who are around to do it all the time. Evading trolling is an ability in of itself, and allowing people to either get shock and dodge or troll actually makes the wars more interesting because of the multiple options people would have, as long as people don't rage quit because of it...

    The current rule isn't bad and a good compromise but there are so many ways to circumvent them just because of the sheer amount of things that can happen. If the rule is kept as is it needs to be a lot bigger because right now it doesn't explain much in terms of proof, what constitutes "affecting the race" and how you can even determine if someone ran into the troll intentionally.

    Edit: And taking shots at imperious / sousui is really random, Arpe. He hasn't played a single IL war for us, and there's a good chance he'd be on team 2 if we make one for next season...
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    Zero

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Zero on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:24 pm

    I feel like the way it is now is as good as it's going to get.

    Personally I'd allow trolling but as is teams are guaranteed at least half of the season to be trolling if they wish, and vice versa, which is an acceptable compromise.

    Although I do agree the rule right now is pretty subjective. Anything besides a random troll at the end of lap 3 that doesn't cost the racer a position could be considered to have an effect on the outcome of the race.

    acemkw

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by acemkw on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:47 pm

    I think you are just finding another way to bitch and complain because the world should revolve around imperious.
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    Bounty

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Bounty on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:57 pm

    acemkw wrote:I think you are just finding another way to bitch and complain because the world should revolve around imperious.

    Kabazauls wrote:

    I really think trolling should be allowed although there's a good chance it would make imperious do worse in IL wars since we have not gotten much practice for it nor do we have many people who are around to do it all the time.


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    flc

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by flc on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:04 pm

    acemkw wrote:I think you are just finding another way to bitch and complain because the world should revolve around imperious.

    allowing trolling would be disadvantageous for imperious, since we are bad against it. try again.

    Agosta44

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Agosta44 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:07 pm

    Option C without question. Add a subrule about short tracks like Yoshi Falls or Ghost Valley for some protection ie: hit in the back -> falls off -> target shocked -> someone dodges and happens to pass them.
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    Arpegio

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Arpegio on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:08 pm

    flc wrote:frontrunning skill comes down to item avoidance, item use, consistency and speed. avoiding trolls is--or at least should be--included in item avoidance. it's also countered by shock dodges, which in turn are countered by trolling. therefore, the better frontrunners will win more often assuming they're good enough to avoid trolling, which they really should be.
    I've been playing with some of the greatest frontrunners who can't even avoid trolling everytime. That's just random, nobody can really avoid it. I think I've way more experience in trolling wars than you'll never have to argue about it. I remember that chat on Sasuke's stream for KC vs AR, it seems everyone discovered how random/lucky trolling wars are. Trust me, you're in the wrong way.

    flc wrote:the debate has been around for ages, but during the last 4 wcl seasons, bash was the one making the decisions and he was extremely biased and rarely actually did anything. I was the one trying to make the trolling rule change back then as well.
    Can't remember you... Talking about WCL, I think IL will never surpass it, no matter how biased it was. Isn't IL biased today ? USA against Europe, it's like nobody can't stand each other.
    I think acemkw just summarized my thoughts : it always has to be one clan leading the community for their good. [Rv] did it, and now it is someone else's turn ? I don't care if you suck at trolling or anything (that's ironic though).

    flc wrote:friendly wars should not use the IL rules. people only do that out of laziness.
    Which rules then ? Let's make 5 GP's wars, 3v3 wars, 100cc wars, etc.
    Just saying in case : I'm exaggerating. But no rules = loose.

    SM4e wrote:I'm sure a lot of clans would leave the competition, if trolling was allowed again. Trolling is an oppotunity for weaker clans to have a chance to win. That's why I actually think, it'd be the idea to let the rules the way they are right now because of the high loss of skill.
    *Like*

    Kabazauls wrote:And taking shots at imperious / sousui is really random, Arpe. He hasn't played a single IL war for us, and there's a good chance he'd be on team 2 if we make one for next season...
    I thought you were used to sarcasms ?
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    BairdN

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by BairdN on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:03 pm

    Last option sets the basis of bagging back about a year or two so of course that's what I'm all4. If Option A is chosen everything that happens is fair game and will make warring complete chaos which relies more on power anything. A few teams love it this way, and find it more fun. imo it's godawful so im hoping for C


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    Biscuits aka "Josh"

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Biscuits aka "Josh" on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:34 pm

    BairdN wrote:Last option sets the basis of bagging back about a year or two so of course that's what I'm all4. If Option A is chosen everything that happens is fair game and will make warring complete chaos which relies more on power anything. A few teams love it this way, and find it more fun. imo it's godawful so im hoping for C

    C is my choice because it is the closest we will ever come to normal wars ever again. I don't even like the term "trolling", I think it is overused and used in the wrong context. That, however, is not the concern for this topic. I have an issue with what happens when someone is a lap down and how it affects the entire playing field. Since it is 4v4 + 1v1, how do you think the 8th and 7th place racers are affected? They are the ones getting the worst items, likely, single reds, trip greens, bloopers, because everything is off balanced. It is a disadvantage for new clans joining the league because they can't form a solid fundamental plan on how to be able to score points against clans that have been racing together who compile the top spots majority.

    The ultimate goal for my vote is to be able to enjoy an event that supports a fun environment that is highly competitive. I don't see how "trolling" allows for such one. Wink


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    Lukepapers

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Lukepapers on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:03 pm

    lol @ trolling ever being banned in the first palce

    lo.l urles agIANST RORLING


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    thechillzor

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by thechillzor on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:21 pm

    trolling si snot bannishment approved lol babning torlling

    trolling shouldnt be bad

    Kabazauls

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Kabazauls on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:04 pm

    Not everyone in imperious wants trolling. We're posting our own individual opinions on it. There is no conspiracy, we aren't taking over the league. None of us have any power in IL as admins or council members or anything.
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    Arpegio

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by Arpegio on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:52 am

    Kabazauls wrote:None of us have any power in IL as admins or council members or anything.
    That's wrong, we can't say that fairness exists here.
    Maybe WCL was biased, but each clan had at least one member within staff/council.
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    5olaaar

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by 5olaaar on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:03 am

    a without a doubt.

    makes you more concentrated on the game.

    SCRUBS?
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    SuperTorn

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    Re: The trolling rule needs revising.

    Post by SuperTorn on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:55 am

    allow lagging
    allow hacking
    allow isos
    allow trolling
    allow not wearing tags
    allow glitching
    allow to open room 20 minutes later and ignore the other team pcing you
    allow repicking

    disallow holding a to go vroom vroom


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